Just Fucking Depressing

Now this is depressing (Matt Taibbi by way of Glenn Greenwald). On the other hand it does seem to explain a lot of things about where we are in this country concerning protests. It also, for me, explains why I felt so uncomfortable at the tea bagger here.

There is something really wrong with what is going on right now in our government and the way the president and congress has chosen to rescue the banking system from drowning while essentially leaving the middle class and un[under]employed to swim out on their own. If they can.

The suggestion that we have finally become a true peasant society doffing our hats at our betters while attacking each other seems pretty accurate to me. Sad really.

Rudy

"Marriage, I believe, both traditionally and legally, has always been between a man and a woman and should remain between a man and woman," said Giuliani. No that is not quite right:

"Marriage, I believe, both traditionally and legally, has always been between a man and a woman and should remain between a man and woman [who should be his cousin, then a man and another woman and then a man and yet a different woman]," said Giuliani.

There all better now.

Uh Oh

I'm afraid that no good can come of this.

Arthur Kinoy

I neglected to mention in the last post that there was an interview with Arthur Kinoy, on the DVD. He was called in at the last moment to try to save the Rosenbergs. The interview was not part of the movie, but was one of the add ons. It was fun watching it. He is dead now, and I only met him a few times, in law school, and shortly after. I do remember him at a party at an NLG convention in Detroit. I left before it ended, too tired to stay awake. He was still there partying with the law students. What a personality and what a legal mind used always in the service of progressive causes.

Movie Report

We watched Heir to an Execution yesterday. Got it from the library it is a movie made by Ivy Meeropol the granddaughter of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. It tells both a good deal of the story, but I don't think that you would want to go here for the general outline. It is more of a very personal inspection of the charges and the affect on the families.

It is pretty amazing to watch some of the older people who knew the Rosenbergs. They are for the most part still more than a little progressive. Including one very dapper 103 year old guy. One woman who had also served time for being a communist explained how it was that the Rosenbergs did not name names to save their lives: "It was just something they couldn't do. It was not a part of their make up." Of course, if one has any self awareness at all one must wonder how they would act if put in a similar position. The 103 year old was on a list that Julius was given (according to what he was later told by the Rosenbergs lawyer) the sentence could have been reduced, but he refused to identify anyone.

The effect on the family was devastating. It still plays on people who are fifty years and a generation removed. One guy who's father changed the family name to Roberts ended up weeping because he was not there for the family even though of course, it happened long before he could have been there. His mother had refused to take the two sons of the Rosenbergs and she apparently kept going over and over her moral failure (something she was clearly aware of) with her son. There were several brothers and sisters and none of them stepped forward to help. No one but the one son/cousin would even talk to the film maker.

The fear and paranoia encouraged by the government's lies and made up evidence, increased the hysterical fear and hatred of the "other" which the Rosenbergs represented.

It does not seem to have destroyed the immediate family. They seem strong and committed to progressive politics still.

I was not expecting to find this film as compelling as I did. Watching what the rulers of our country are willing to do to further their ends and how that effects a family in a most personal way is really painful. Like all good political art it makes one think.

A Very Lazy Sunday Afternoon

We worked this morning, this afternoon, not so much.

Sunday Stuff

Went to a local writers conference yesterday in Coshocton, Ohio. OK, I guess, although I did not know that I had signed up for a class in Scrap Booking. Well OK, I had thought I'd signed up for a seminar in "Memoirs." I should have realized what it was about when I walked in the room and saw this huge three ring binder with all these plastic sleeves. By the time I realized what it was it was too late. There were only about fifteen people in the room and only two of us were men. Also, I would have had to have walked across in front of the room between the speaker and the participants to get out. It would have been rude and obvious. A little too rude and obvious, I'm afraid.

Today mow the yard try to finish setting up the garden, put up the purple martin house, and wash the dogs; not necessarily in that order. Yard, garden, and dog washing are done. The chow is not amused.



We watched Byron a BBC TV movie about Byron (what a shock, eh?). I did not think it was possible to make a story about Byron boring. Everything of any real interest happened off screen. I guess I should have figured that out also, when in one of the first scenes Byron says something to the effect "While I was in Greece I swam the Hellespont." No need to show when you can tell I guess.

If there had been some insight into his creativity there would have been something to recommend it. As it was he might as well have been some guy who inherited wealth and didn't have to work at it so could spend his time being a prick. As that may be beyond the moderately explicit sex scenes with his wife (not much), Lady Caroline Lamb (not much), and his sister (a little more, but still not much) there was nothing to recommend it. Pretty I guess. I think there may have been one short poem, perhaps two of his spoken during the entire three hours. Shelly makes a brief appearance and then drowns. We kept watching it thinking that it had to get better finally near the end we decided that "By god we were going to watch it to the end no matter how bad." So other than that I can whole heartily recommend it.

Maybe some beasts later on.

A (Last?) Thought on Torture

A few more thoughts on our torture loving establishment.

They seem to insist on arguing minutia. Just how often was he water boarded? How long was each session? How frightened was he after each session? Has there been permanent psychological damage?

Or arguing political procedure rather than the value and right and wrong of the issue. I thought that is what politics is really supposed to be about: whether this position is right or wrong/good or bad. Apparently I was misinformed. Lincoln (with all of his compromises) would have been surprised. Obama, who claims Lincoln as a hero certainly doesn't seem to feel that way. It appears that he doesn't want a real investigation to get in the way of his reaching out to the rulers side for what I don't know. You can see something of the same attitude in the way he is trying to deal with the banks. Shoving money to the ones who screwed us up in the first place while not really changing anything.

None of those are real questions or real issues. Water boarding has been considered torture since at least the Inquisition and used as torture by them and the witch hunters of about 500 years or so ago. I doubt if it was invented then, I suspect that it has been around for much longer. There really isn't any real argument about what it is. Or at least there wasn't until a few of our governing class and our yammering class realized that is just what we've been doing for the last eight years at the direction of their buds and school chums. Suddenly then we have discussions about the mental condition and how carefully we have our (completely corrupt) house physicians keep an eye on these sessions. We are now into nuance.

The discussion has moved beyond Orwell into Lewis Carroll: "A word means just what I mean it to mean neither more nor less." It isn't torture because we say it isn't. Or maybe torture is necessary today (or yesterday) because we think that something really bad might happen if we don't torture. Actually, I think that Inquisition had the better argument there since they figured that your soul would burn in everlasting torment if they didn't torture you back to the one true god. We only want to find out if you are going to try to blow up our corporeal selves.

More Torture

Wow well trust the New York Times to publish an article that is just a bit of wonderful CYA shit from the people who made the decisions and all leaking like a tire that's run over fifty yards of broken glass.

These people, the main players in the spy and counter spy business want us to believe that they did not know the history of what they were doing and they claim that they did not know that water boarding was torture. On top of that the number of unnamed high level players who claimed that they (or their immediate superiors) did not have the proper information to make the decisions that they made (all the time speaking off record of course) just boggles the mind.

This is a major story in the major newspaper of record (hahahaha) and I can see that most of it is bullshit and I live in East ,Ohio. First, we are expected to believe that these people couldn't get the correct information. Second, we are expected to believe that these people believed the limited amount of information they claim to have been given. Third we are expected to believe that these decision makers did not know what water boarding is and how it was used in the past. Fourth, we are expected to believe that these people, all of whom are old enough to remember the Korean War (that is they were kids right after that war) and given their general interest in politics would have been aware of the brain washing and torture of American prisoners; that they do not remember the false confessions. Finally we are expected to believe that they made these decisions and stuck to them after it was clear that they were getting bad information and false confession, stuck to them because they thought they were working, not because they are simply sadists. Well why shouldn't we the NYT does.

Do you suppose that this is just a plot to take our minds off their fuck up of the economy?

Banality of Evil

How banal those memos were and how banal are all those people in Washington. In fact that may be the definition of the main stream media right now: banal and evil. (Maybe I should start a twitter account?)

The Supremes

Well this is just kind of depressing. I had been kind of following the case a little, but I'm not surprised that it looks like the court will up hold a strip search for ibuprofen. I mean who would have thought eh?

My entire professional life has been spent with a court that has gotten more and more conservative, and let's face it, it started out that way. Growing up with a Warren court kind of gets you to expect something decent and good from the people who sit there. Hell look at Warren and Brennan one good republican and the other a conservative democrat both appointed by a good republican and some of the most progressive people ever to sit on the court.

No one appointed by any of the presidents since Johnson has been as progressive as these guys appointed by Eisenhower.

Tea Party?

So 200,000 or maybe 300,000 people rallied around the country to protest, what exactly? Higher taxes for the wealthiest 2%? What I heard at my little rally was that we do not want our children to pay for this. The rhetoric is (and I really hate to use this word, but it does describle it) fascist, I do not think that most of the people in the rally thought it through though. No bridges, schools (of course the one speaker was opposed to public schools in any form) except for pay as we go. One wonders how they would have paid for WWII.

My fear is that in a year or perhaps even less it will become clear to people that what Obama is doing isn't working and is only tangentially helping the middle class. When that happens it is entirely possible that the republican party will still not have an alternate position that makes sense to anybody. At that point the speakers at my little rally will be out there and ready to take over. Or worse the same kind of rulers (power to the powerful types) we have had in power for the last several decades will continue to squeeze the rest of us and well there you are I guess.

The essential problem I see with Obama is that he has surrounded himself with people whose outlook simply reflects the conventional wisdom. He simply appears unwilling to go beyond the shallow pool that is Washington wisdom. As a historian I would find it interesting that the people we elect are unable to see the problems and wonder why. As a person living through these times I am scared shitless.

Huh?

So I'm counting on this being relatively coherent. The chow has decided that chasing cats between the hours of midnight and 4:00 a..m. is not enough. No. I must join in the games. In the morning after the alarm goes off then the next thirty minutes are generally kind of confusing. I know that I get coffee and drink it and then get into my car and get dressed (not necessarily in that order, I hope) and go to work. Generally by the time I get to work I am awake. Luckily the interstate between my home and work is more or less straight.

Then a few hours later I find myself wondering just where it is I am. You know that when I was using the Colombian white powder as opposed to the Colombian black grains I was able to awake and move about much more quickly. Although it did cost a lot more.

This is all to say that there are several things I would like to comment on relatively intelligently, but I really do not seem able to do that right now.

Stimulus Shimulus

So Obama has ordered his cabinet to save $100 million. I thought that the entire idea of a stimulus was that the government poured money into the economy to, essentially jump start it. The more money that is cut from the government budget the less money is put into the stimulus. Right?

Sunday Beasts

Loki and Tansey discuss the proper distribution of treats in an abbreviated beast blog.

Torture

So the New York Times, in response to the torture memos says on the one hand and on the other hand. And gee isn't something that isn't torture nearly as bad and why don't people object to bombing people and killing family members and blahblahblah. So I guess this should all be looked at in a reasonable manner. In a way that serious people look at things like torture.

Nuremberg

So what, in the end did Nuremberg (and other war crimes trials after WWII) stand for? After reading the torture memos looking at our general lack of response to most of the acts of genocide of the last fifty years, and watching our actions in Iraq and various other little countries south of us, I think I can safely say:

First, you are not allowed to invade Poland from the West, second you are not allowed to kill a lot of Jews, third you are not allowed to torture Americans.

Dictionary Good

Euphemism, the god damn word I was looking for to use in the last post was euphemism. Damn it.

Everything Old is New Again

One of the disturbing things about the last eight years (and perhaps before that) is the ease by which the government has been able to relabel things and to get the media to go along. Torture becomes "harsh interrogation techniques." Or today in the AP "rough tactics." The only people who complain are a few DFHs. Today the AP refers to Obama agreeing not to prosecute CIA people who used "rough tactics" according to the headline, the NYT headline refers to "harsh tactics" in the torture memos.

If all the main stream press can do is repeat mindlessly the code word which was apparently dictated (in all senses of that word) instead of the real word to describe whatever the real right wing rulers want them to, then why should we care if the press is going the way of the Dodo bird? Hell they cannot accurately describe something as straight forward as a little torture.

On the other hand I guess we can't really expect the press to come up with their own words. It isn't like it is something they claim to be able to do. Let's face it we are now hearing that someone or some idea has been "thrown under the bus" to indicate that the person or the idea has been repudiated, constantly. For at least three decades any and every political scandal is some sort of ......gate. (OK admittedly Sen. Vitter's problems are more interesting when described as Diapergate, but that is an exception.)

George Orwell wrote about this kind of thing a long time ago. (I suppose that an example of how long this kind of thing has been around is describing fascist Spain and Portugal as part of the "free world " for decades.) I read it in high school. I would expect that most of the people who write these articles and headlines were also required to read it in high school or college. I took it as a warning, apparently they use it as a template.

Torture Memos

Wow just wow.

And in addition Obama has promised not to prosecute the guys who actually tortured. I'm sorry I meant used harsh interrogation techniques.

At the same time some 89 year old guy who has lived in Cleveland for about 50 years or more is within inches of being deported to Germany for crimes, if true, are significantly less serious than our harsh interrogators who are getting a pass on being promoted to federal judge, apparently. All these people should lose their right to practice law---for ever.

Torture

So I didn't realize that this was so far along. A kind of sad reason to drop the case against our former rulers, huh? Think Obama will do anything?

Weighing Ming

Weighing Ming, just about three weeks from her first birthday. Sixty pounds.

Some More Tea Party Fun

An update. Since I got to the party a little late I did not hear correctly the name of the featured (or at least the one who talked the longest, while I was there) speaker. It was James Patrick Johnston, DO. You can look him up, but he is a real ot job. Apparently a member of the Army of God amoung other things and a person who wants shira (ops I mean biblical) law.

Although, that would explain his internal consistancy in his speech. Since I actually listened to him and heard him advocate not just lower taxes, but essentially that people needed to be prepared to give up their social security and all sorts of other things paid by taxes including public schools. He was a good speaker, but I'm not sure the folks there internalizing just what he was demanding.

Cliff Eagleson just, I think, confused people there. There was a little something about the Illuminati, the Masons, and Blackwater. Then after about five minutes his talk was done.

Unfortunately I missed Jeanette Moll, who I am sure was interesting.

Local reporting put the number at about 300, but I'm inclined to think a little less then that, but why quibble.

A whole bunch of relatively poor people who want the taxes lowered on their betters although they do not see it that way. Somehow they think that their taxes are going to be raised. I could not be our media that have given them that idea, could it? Essentially the 20th and 21st should be repealled was what I took from the speakers.

A lot of people believe that their children and grandchildren will need to pay this off and are opposed to that. Of course, if the economy continues to expand, as it has done then the pay off will happen alot sooner than expected. When ever I hear the argument about not having our children pay of our borrowing, I wonder about the generations paying off WWII. If you pay for something right now that will benefit us all now and benefit the future generations then it seems to me that it is not a bad thing to borrow to spend the money now. To maintiain a good society whether through a war or an economic bail out has got to have a benefit for the future generations and I would think that the future generations wouldn't mind paying off those debts if necessary.

Tea Party

Went to a tea party this evening at the courthouse square in town. There were about oh I'd say 200 people there. All most all of them are obviously what one would call lower middle class, or working class. I would guess that there were quite a few militia types there.

There were more people there, I think, then were at the anti Klan rally I attended a few years ago here. There was a cold drizzle so it was a good turn out, I would think. I got there late and left early. I was getting bored and angry at the speakers, much the same way I get mad at the TV. Very frustrating when you can't really do anything about it and in this case I couldn't even yell back. [Discretion/valor, etc.]

As I say there were more than a few militia there. One of the featured speakers was a locally famous militia guy, Cliff Eagleson. One that most of the attorneys in town are familiar with. There was also our state senator, Jimmy Stewart (yes that's right), I left while he was speaking.

The main speaker was a local physician who'd lost in a run for the state legislature last time, a Johnson. He had a bevy of kids and a speech that combined bad religion, with bad history, with bad economics.

One of the interesting aspects of the rally was how little police presence there was. Oh there were police there, but everyone was noticeably white and mostly middle aged. When I went to the anti Klan rally every one was searched for weapons and we were actually put in a cage. I would be willing to bet there were a lot more concealed weapons at this rally then there were at the anti Klan one.

Who could argue that we don't want to leave our kids with our bills, but of course if the various bail outs work the bills will be paid. The allegations the Social Security is a ponzi were thrown around by everybody (except Eagleson, his talk was indecipherable -- I could hear it I just couldn't understand it). Here were people for whom Social Security is all the stands between them and literally starvation nodding their heads when they are told it must go.

On the whole pretty sad, and kind of scary to see the folks who are buying into this shit. They have no real ways to object to what Obama is doing except to label it as communist (and now fascist), no real understanding. That is what I blame Obama for, he is simply doing what the wealthy and their employees have always done. He is not able or not willing to see that there is a better way, that doesn't suck up to the bankers and stock brokers. So in a way these people have a reason to be pissed, but instead of having a functional left to provide alternatives, they are really only permitted to hear the right.

Oh That Henny Youngman

So there are thousands of gay men gathering around the United States today to support tea bagging. Hmmmm?

Let's See If We Can Figure This Out/ With Update

I remember when Clinton was elected and how the right seemed to go crazy and do everything they possibly could to derail his presidency. They really did succeed I think. At the time I wondered why they were so angry. It was shortly after Clinton was elected that I was able to see that he really was a moderate republican, like Eisenhower, Nixon and Hoover. Or a democrat like Cleveland. Hell, he was hardly to the left of Reagan. Still the republicans went nuts. I could not figure it out at the time.

So now they are doing the same thing. Obama is giving money to the banks, Obama is staying in Iraq and Afghanistan, Obama is extending the secrecy arguments of the Bush years, and Obama is apparently keeping "Don't ask, don't tell." Taxes on the middle class are being lowered and the taxes on the wealthy are only going as high as they were under Reagan, or perhaps even lower. Still the republicans and right shriek and flail about as though our most cherished freedoms are being sliced away by the torture of the thousand cuts. Further they are able to get a least a few ordinary people out to back them.

I think that the long term goal is to make any even minor progressive move so painful to any politician that they will just decide that it is so much easier not to do it. That it will take a truly committed politician to propose any kind of liberal or progressive agenda. Knowing of course, that most politicians are most committed to being re-elected.

I suspicion that the entire hoo ra does not really cause many people to change their minds nor does it really reflect any strength on the right. Rather it is kind of like a frog sucking in air to make itself look bigger. I am further reminded that in the first free election after the fall of communism in Russia the communist party got a vote total in the mid 30% range and the fascists got the same amount in the first free election in Spain after Franco. So my point is that at any time and any where there are about one third of the general population who are simply bat shit crazy and really truly in love with the idea of a totalitarian master to just tell them what they should do.

I'm not sure if that makes me feel better or worse.

UPDATE: A couple of thoughts. First, I mean better or worse because we do not appear to have more than our share of bat shit crazies, but there are a shit load of them out there.

Second, when I was listing things that Obama is doing that were pretty similar to what a generic republican would do, I left out the way he is dealing with the torture memos and with wire taps.

Hey Joe Whatta Know?

So I am kind off feeling off today. Just at this moment, I mean.

I am reading all about these here tea bagging demonstrations and I would really like to go to one, but I am afraid that I will be in court tomorrow and I will be trying to figure out just what it is the abusive father of my client (the kid) really wants.

You know that I am in a group that includes this person who keeps insisting that her taxes are going to rise with Obama's "tax increases." I've been by her house, her husband does not make more than $250,000.00 a year. In addition to that no one has ever explained to her just what "marginal" means as far as the tax code is concerned. So I would like to be at the demonstrations trying to figure out what these abused individuals really want for their wealthy overlords.

Well I would quote Blazing Saddles, but it's been done. Oh, OK I will anyway: THESE ARE PEOPLE OF THE LAND. THE COMMON CLAY OF THE NEW WEST. YOU KNOW... MORONS.

Just Slightly Delayed Sunday Animal Blogging

Sonny and Ming Just Hanging

Ming Getting All in Your Face

Loki and Sonny Watching TV

Sonny Decides That This Is OK

Dirt

It is now what I am now officially older than.

Great Gatsby

It's the anniversary of the publication of The Great Gatsby. What a wonderful book. Reading the New York Times article about high school students reading the book is painful. I guess that everybody identifies with Gatsby at that age. But from the Times' article it doesn't seem that the kids are aware that Gatsby's green light is really empty and false. On the other hand they are kids, although I would have thought that the teachers would have attempted to point something like that out to them.

In thinking about it though Fitzgerald was about as close to seeing life as Gatsby did as an author could get to a character. It is kind of surprising that being so much like Gatsby he could step back and look at him through Nick's objective eyes. So maybe I should not be too hard on 16 year old kids who don't see the futility and (dare I say it) existential emptiness of Gatsby's light. Particularly since the author both did and didn't, himself.

The 1974 movie was really pretty bad. Robert Redford was good as Gatsby, but Mia Farrow was no Daisy. She was awful. The script wasn't particularly good either. When a relatively short book like Gatsby or Call of the Wild or A Christmas Carol is made into a movie it really is better, I think, to keep very close to the original (which can be done with these short books) rather than to try to "open it up" or "improve" on it. The movie is rarely better for the changes.

Possibly an Increase in Income

In these days of hard times it seems to me, as an attorney who handles divorce and custody cases, that the actions of the Iowa Supreme Court and the Vermont legislature are to be applauded. Let's face it I can use the money and somehow I really do not think that homosexuals are really any more capable of living happily ever after than heteros.

An increase in the divorce business of ten to fifteen per cent is something to be devoutly wished for in these times and here it has happened in one felt swoop, at least for Iowa and Vermont.

Can there be anything else of imporance here?

Post Sunday Beasts

Another lazy Sunday, or perhaps I should just learn how to take action shots.

Some Good News For a Change

From Colorado it looks like Ward Churchill won his case (in reality the first round, I suspect), but still good for him. It is all part of a more or less well orchestrated attempt from the right wing to suppress .......... I was about to say speech, but what they really want to suppress are thoughts and ideas that are not sufficiently servile. Servile, in general to those who control things here abouts, that is. Those who control things here abouts are right wingers.

Let's face it when even the suggestion of a limitation on the wages of those who run companies that get tax dollars to stay afloat can bring near total mass hysteria from the right in opposition. It is amazing that a jury on Colorado can find for the guy. I'm just really impressed with the jury.

If one thinks that both John Yoo and Alan Dershowitz still teach at law schools on opposite sides of this continent, one justifying torture as a government lawyer and the other teaching at one of the most prestigious law schools in the country after having written calling for the establishment of "torture courts" does one really need to wonder what it was that got Churchill canned? Of course Yoo didn't call it torture, but rather enhanced interrogation techniques, I think. It makes a lawyer proud that one in my profession could come up with that. It makes one amazed that the entire media in this country could immediately accept that phrase to describe what has, for thousands of years, been known as torture while at the same time crucifying Churchill. So I guess that answers my questions.

(There are a lot of people at the highest levels still will apparently defend the practice. One of them wants to be the head of Obama's CIA.)

The second thing that really blows me away is the Iowa Supreme Court's decision that same sex marriage is a right under the Iowa constitution just blows me away. I would expect a massive blow back from the right and something like Prop 8 should be coming to your Iowa ballot box soon.

We in Ohio do not have to worry about that since in 2004 as part of defeating the famous communist Kerry we got a constitutional amendment that limited marriage to couples of the opposite sex (I think that same species was understood).

I think about how far we as a country have come in my life time (ok that is a rather long life time), but still. I was 22 when Stonewall happened and I remember reading about it (maybe at the time or shortly thereafter). Worked at Antioch in the 70s and got my eyes open by some folks there. I suspect that being forced into situations with people I would not normally hang has changed me (without taking any credit for doing it myself) for the better. One looks back on one's life and sees a series of accidents really, that if one is open to new and different ideas can shape one in a much better fashion than could have happened if all one's hopes had originally been fulfilled.

Well Well

UPDATE: Oh yeah, I forgot about this guy of course he is a progressive democrat.

So there was so much prosecutorial misconduct that Holder has decided to dismiss the charges against Stevens. From what I've read about the case it was probably the correct decision. Although, I have had cases which were covered in detail in the local paper and I couldn't recognize them from the description in the newspaper.

I defended an guy who was accused of arson. Made the front page of the local news two days running. The first day was not too bad (it was the prosecution's case in chief). The second day and the decision was weird. Apparently, the reporter decided that my guy was guilty before the trial started, or at least before I put my case on.

The jury found him not guilty, but you couldn't have figured out why from the report, since none of the exculpatory evidence was given in the newspaper. A person reading that story simply figured that the jury was crazy.

So to make a long story short perhaps there was indeed this much prosecutorial misconduct. Or perhaps we're just covering for another good ole boy who deserves it because...........well because. What do you think was going on here with an Attorney General's office as highly politicized as the Bush one? Why go so far to try to nail Stevens?

At any rate do you think that Holder will do this for any accused drug dealers whose trial has the same sort of prosecutorial misconduct. Also will the attorneys involved be disciplined by their state bar? If they did it they should be.